Lotta was only 40 when she gave up drinking. She speaks with compassion and understanding about people who might have a little voice in their heads that says, you need to rethink the way you drink, this is not right for you personally — for whatever reason.

I have also transitioned into sobriety, but it was sobriety in old age (I was over 80) and for different reasons. Just because I'm old, alcohol was giving me less pleasure and bothering me physically. My taste buds, my brain and my digestive system were protesting. Even so, there were some challenges. I learned how even the loveliest friends can take a while to understand your change — and I was ambivalent myself, to start with. The pressure from your social circle can be intense or subtle, defensive or well-meaning.

Any time is a good time to look at how your country, your culture and your social group treat alcohol. New Zealand is a particularly weird place in that way, largely because for 50 years (1929–1979) pubs closed at 6pm, training Kiwis to drink fast, drink up, drink to get pissed in the 'six-o'clock swill.' It's wrong to blame yourself if you're drinking too much because there's so much pressure from business, history, society to do so — and alcohol is addictive.

I have seen people begin drinking heavily in old age. But I'd like to know how many people shift to sobriety in old age, like me.

Head to Lotta's website for information and advice and company, if this topic interests you: Living Sober: advice, tools, experts, and a caring community

Mrs D is going without: Lotta Dann's historic blog, still online, with good reason!

Reading a podcast transcript

Podcasts on Apple Podcasts have a transcript running at the same time. That can be handy, especially if you're hard of hearing. If you listen to it on my website, you can read the transcript here. It's pretty long — just keep scrolling!

Transcript of episode 49. Thinking about sobriety in old age: Guest Lotta Dann

Hello, I'm Rachel McAlpine. I was born in 1940, so I'm learning how to be old.

And with me today is Lotta Dann, who made a huge impression in New Zealand and abroad

with her day-by-day account of her struggle to give up drinking.

Alcohol, that is. And she now carries on the good work.

She runs the Living Sober website with the New Zealand Drug Foundation.

I'll give you the URL in the notes.

I'm very interested because everything is different when you're older

and that includes why we drink, how we drink,

and the social environment in which we drink.

So welcome, Lotta.

I'm so very glad to have you here in my podcast studio.

In other words, sitting on the couch in my sitting room.

Hello lovely to be here. Yes bathed in sunlight. Yes and with a cat let's hope she behaves.

Now it struck me that you and I are both good subjects for a compare and contrast exercise.

Did you do that at school? Compare this poem with that poem or? Probably yes. And contrast what's

alike because we both gave up drinking but at completely different times of our life and for

different reasons and different methods. Yeah, because how old are you? Not at all?

I'll be 55 this year. Yeah, and I'm 85 so that's enough of a difference to have a contrast.

Oh for goodness sake, I'm not 85. I'm 86.

I want to know how old you were when you gave up drinking.

I was 39. I was one month shy of my 40th birthday.

Was that a point, the fact that you were turning 40?

Yes and no. I think in hindsight, I don't think it's surprising that I came to a big life decision

right on that 40th birthday because it is a time of change but it was also just the reason that

my drinking had really got to such a bad point at that time that I was forced in many ways to

give up then. Yeah 40. Yeah there's quite a lot of drinking done before 40. Whereas I gave up

drinking almost completely. I'll have like a millimetre of nice wine if it's around sometimes,

once a week, once a month or something, but mostly not at all. But I suppose I really gave up about,

perhaps when I was about 80, I don't know, and it was just tailing off until then.

Was that a conscious decision for you? Like I'm not going to drink anymore or was it more of a

casual you just found that you weren't drinking that. It was an intention yes

not for the same reasons as you probably I think it was my old body saying look

you can't do this Rachel I just drink less and less until I was thinking well

is there a waste of money to buy a bottle of wine and have it sitting there

for a couple of weeks going funny. Yeah that is not my experience. Why did you

give up drinking. I mean why, tell me about it because it's an amazing story.

Well I would just, you know, there was a huge part of me that didn't want to quit

drinking because it had been a part of my life since I was 15 and in many

respects I loved it. I loved alcohol, you know, I loved that it made me feel loose

and relaxed and sort of naughty and fun and I loved it. I always just wanted to be

The upbeat fun lotter and alcohol helped me do that, but I couldn't control it.

I mean, I was literally drinking to intoxication almost every single night of the week.

I was embarrassing myself when I was out at social events and I had a raging internal

dialogue telling me something was wrong and I needed to change.

alongside the raging internal dialogue telling me,

drinking's normal, everyone does it.

You're hardworking, you deserve it.

Go ahead, drink.

The other part of my brain was going, this is wrong.

You're out of control, you've gotta stop.

And it was absolute hell back and forward.

• A nightmare.
• To the point where I had to,

the only way to stop that was actually to stop drinking

and it was terrifying, but I made that decision

and I haven't had a drink since.

• Just like that.
• Well, not just like that.

It was very hard.

• It was a couple of years, was it?

That you were writing your blog.

This is the strange and amazing thing to me,

to most people, I suppose,

is that you didn't tell your family,

but you did a blog about it.

• I told my husband,
• Yes.
• Because we don't have any secrets from each other.

Although right at the end, I was hiding wine bottles,

which was part of the pain of seeing where I was at

was that I was bringing deceit into our marriage.

So he knew I was quitting,

but I didn't tell my extended family

who were all living elsewhere at the time.

I just really focused on trying to fix myself

and I sort of set out to do it all by myself,

which I now realize was foolish,

but anyway, it worked for me

'cause I started writing this blog

and writing myself letters effectively every day

about what I was doing.

• And that way it worked for other people too

because you got such a following

and people were so engaged.

People who had the same feelings.

• Yeah, and I mean at the time

there were all these blogs on the internet

and you know every housewife in America

was blogging about her crafting and children

and I just thought my blog would be hidden

amongst all of them and no one would read it.

I didn't write it to be read.

I wrote it as a private, I just did it online

type faster than I write with a pen.

• Yeah.
• But actually people started reading it and commenting

and they were all saying I'm just like you

and up to that point I had felt very alone.

I thought everyone in the world,

'cause this is what's presented to us through marketing

and our environment, everyone in the world's

having a great time with alcohol

and you're the only loser that is miserable.

And when people started reading my blog and commenting

just like you, I discovered there are so many people secretly, privately struggling with

alcohol still to this day and feeling that it's their fault, their to blame, they should

be ashamed and they hide it and you know this is why I do what I do now because I just think

the more we're open and honest the more we're all helped.

Yes, it's that pressure from society that's why people are failing. If society didn't

that attitude that you know a good time equals a glass in your hand then it

wouldn't be embarrassing it wouldn't be disturbing you could just get cracking

and give up without some of that struggle wouldn't be there. I mean I

find that you know by contrast it's not a very big contrast really but at least I

grew up with parents who had a sherry at Christmas before dinner or something

like that. It was about like that. So there'd be this bottle of sherry getting syrupy year

after year after year. And that was the limit of it. But then things changed.

50 years of the 6 o'clock swill I think must have trained New Zealanders to boos, to get

drunk as fast as possible in a way that it's not sort of normal in other countries.

The six o'clock swill, it did train us to booze and get as drunk as fast as we can,

but it also trained us to be okay with public and open intoxication.

And we still have this attitude today.

If someone is falling over drunk at a wedding, we'll laugh about it or admit that it's not

to say I can't remember where we ended up last night. I had to check the bank to

see where I was spending money at 2am and it's all it's okay we laugh like

it's funny and blackouts are not funny. No way. And falling over at weddings

shouldn't be funny it's not okay but we do have an attitude here that being

drunk is okay and and we live in a culture where the liquor industry is

allowed to push this awful messaging of personal responsibility. You just need to

learn how to drink more responsibly and that further shames people if they're not.

So there's so many sort of different messages and pressures that lead to

where we are now where alcohol is just ubiquitous, it's everywhere, people drink

it and yet a lot of people, a lot of people are privately really unhappy

with their drunking. Yeah. I was going to say my blog is called, my blog, listen to me,

I'm back in the olden days. We were just talking about a blog. Yes, my podcast is called

Learning How to Be Old. So I'm always interested in what's different when we're old because

everything changes including the world around us and those strong messages, not that that's changed

a lot except for young people. I understand that there are groups of young people who

don't drink as much and there are others who drink a lot. But how about old people? Do

we all just wind down gently like me without any problems?

No. There are a lot of older people who are still drinking in what would be coined hazardous

ways and a lot of the negative impacts are quite internal so we often think we

need to look at things like getting in trouble with the law or ending up in

hospital or falling over if you're an old person you know that's if I'm not

doing that then I'm okay but it's those subtle but really impactful internal

impacts that are so hard for anyone but I would say old people especially because

it's that kind of diminished sense of self not really allowing yourself to

feel emotion and process difficult emotions not giving yourself time to be

able to reflect on things that might need some reflection even if it's

uncomfortable you know and sort of allowing yourself the space to do that

and then just things like sleeping better not you know doing saying eating

things that you don't want to because you've had a few too many wines and you

let yourself down all of those things. Yes for me I wasn't sort of aware of

what alcohol was doing to me especially except a kind of digestion and a bit of an uneasy

feeling and just not liking it as much which were just aging things but after I gave it

up I didn't sleep badly before you see but now I do sleep better and you know my gut

feels better.

Yeah and if you're used to drinking for many many years you probably don't even recognise

that slight layer of just everything being that bit harder, you're just that

bit more sluggish in the morning or you know you probably don't realize that it

is the alcohol having that impact and as you get older we were talking earlier

you know your body's older right so it's just it's done more wonderful things for

you but it's getting tighter and then if you add alcohol to that it is just going

to make it all that little bit. But I do want to say because I can sometimes come across

like I'm anti-alcohol. You know, if you're having one or two wines and you're really

not feeling it's a problem, that's okay. You're allowed to drink. It's just you will

know if there's a little voice in your head or if you're having any concerns, you know

deep down inside. You know the truth. The drinker knows the truth. So just be

honest with yourself is what I would say and know that if you're

wondering maybe should I, you know that it's doable at any age. That's very

interesting you should say that. Be honest with yourself because recently

Hariata Hemi was on this podcast and she's very involved with the staying

safe refresher driving course run by age concern teaching older drivers how to

deal with the difficulties they might be having with driving and Hariata said

exactly the same thing be honest with yourself right which is not always easy

so which is I imagine a big thing is your age yeah it's very complicated like

giving up drinking, giving up driving. If you're honest with yourself, you know that roads have

changed in the last 30 or 40 years, cars have changed, and our bodies and brains have been changing too.

We're not the same drivers or drinkers that we were when we were 20 or 30, and we might be

shutting her eyes to certain facts. I know what that's like, I can tell you. I can be

willfully blind with the best of them.

What have you got to lose? On the surface, well you've got a nice tasting drink to lose

or to cut down on for example. You know, having a good time, having a lovely social time can

be done with a cup of tea or just a sherry glass full of wine like I did for quite a

long time but I found that it was easier mostly when I'm out anyway just to say no I don't

drink because otherwise you have these little moments where someone's offering you more

drink and you have to say no and it's all a nuisance.

It can feel like a big loss though like I want to acknowledge that and I hear what you're

saying what have you got to lose I feel the same way what have you got to lose but it

It can feel like a lot if it's been your companion and if it's been your go-to or if you're lonely

because loneliness is a big thing.

So I just want to acknowledge that and if you've got the worried voice and you want

to make a change but you feel like it's a big loss, there will be some grieving over

that and there will be a transition.

It might feel uncomfortable at first but I would just recommend push through that because

The benefits are huge.

So, yeah, that's a very good message.

And somebody said to me, you know,

if you're near death and drinking is the only thing that makes you feel good,

who are you to say it might be a good idea?

I mean, that's a weird situation and that must happen a lot

and I'm in no way want to be judging people that like you.

No.

That's not, I'm not, I'm not.

I'd like you to give some tips for those people who are older and in that situation

where their social life kind of involves a lot of alcohol and they have the voice inside

and the real worry.

What are the tips you've got apart from pushing through and knowing the rewards are there?

Just know that it is possible to retrain your thinking.

So if you're coming together with a group of friends every Thursday and everyone's

having a wine and you feel like that gathering is going to lose all its value if I'm not

having the wine, you've really got to focus on actually what is that about.

It's about coming together with friends.

That is the number one.

Who cares what liquid is in your glass, right?

can have the same connected moment, the same social moment without that

lubrication of the drug, which it is by the way, an addictive drug just saying.

So focus like and it takes retraining. But how interesting, do that in your old

age. You know focus on all the things about whatever the social situation is

that aren't the liquid in your glass. What makes it good? What makes it valuable?

and focus on those things and the more you go the third time the fourth time

you'll start to realize actually and

especially if you have that worried voice suddenly the worried voice is gone because you're not drinking and you're just enjoying your time with friends

If they start hassling you for not drinking then are they really good friends?

And also usually it's more about them than you. That's true

it makes some people feel uncomfortable. But people, you can train your friends.

It's they're, they love you, they don't really want to hurt you. So, yeah, a bit of a word.

Yes, that's right. Well, that's exactly right. You know, and be as honest as you feel like you want to be.

But if you can be honest and say, "I've been really worried about it and I'm trying something new,"

you know, if they care about you, they'll hear that.

Yeah.

[Music]

What's your main job at the moment?

I have a few jobs.

I've made not drinking my whole career now and I work sort of in the addiction sector

but the job I'm most proud of and gives me the most fulfilment is running a website called Living Sober

which I do in partnership with the New Zealand Drug Foundation

Dr Susanna Kent and I recorded this episode on my 85th birthday and we had a lot of fun, which I’m keen to share with you.

Why the face of old age is not a pretty one

I demanded that Susanna explain why I’ve got dead-gorse-bush hair, non-existent eyebrows, and so many scars and wrinkles. I questioned random pedestrians: as you’ll hear, most said they don’t look at the face of a new acquaintance but into their eyes — or in one case, at their clothes! They look to see whether a person is approachable. They look for the essence, the spirit of a person. Which has nothing to do with wrinkles.

Poems about making beautiful faces

Turns out I have written at least three poems about faces and makeup. You could almost call it an obsession:

• Making Faces (written in my 30s)
• Beauty Tips for Older Ladies (written when I was 79)
• Aging Beauty — instant poem, (written when I was 82)

Do you really want to know about the face of old age?

We barely touched on the topic. But a quick glance at the NIH National Library of Medicine gives the facts about facial ageing, sometimes in excruciating detail.

• The facial aging process from the inside out (PMC, National Library of Medicine)
• Facial aging trajectories: A common shape pattern in male and female faces is disrupted after menopause (https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6771603/

He is busy planting and growing and weeding a big range of fruit and vegetables in their city garden, and she is harvesting and eating and preserving and giving the rest away.

They're both in their 80s, which is not that unusual for gardeners. That's because if you get the opportunity, gardening is something you can enjoy from the age of 3 to 93, at least.

You can start and stop at any age, although it must be said: Richard never stops. Mind you, they pace themselves. If you are learning how to be old, and if gardening is a possibility for you — well, you can see from Lesley and Richard’s example just how interesting and fun that can be.

The garden produces more than food

It's an inspiration for paintings. Gardens are beautiful. And so is food. Irresistible fodder for an artist like Lesley.

They began as a young married couple in Kunde, in Nepal, high in the Himalayas. Not ideal terrain for a vege garden. They were working in Kunde Hospital founded by Edmund Hillary, and their garden succumbed to wandering yaks.

Obviously gardening is exercise. It’s also a way to plunge into nature, a mental challenge, a budget boost, a social thing and even a neighbourhood thing. One word of advice: You might want to start small!

• Raised garden beds for over-50s
• Making garden connections (Age Concern)

Photos are by Rachel McAlpine except for A. villages of Kumbila and Kunde, which is by Moralist, CC SA-BY 3.0 and B. Lesley Evans' painting of children eating apples off a tree, which is by Lesley Evans.

It's obvious that the asker has not yet ventured into the wonderful world of podcasts. You don't exactly stumble across podcasts, especially independent podcasts like mine, so I am making a few little videos that open the door. They're simplistic, because the person I've got in mind is a blank slate. Once they get it, they're into that wonderful podcast world of learning, laughing and lolling around.

If you know someone who is curious but only half-interested in podcasts, and you want them to try a particular podcast (not necessarily mine) feel free to share the video or audio version of this little talk. That might help, and someone will thank you, I hope.

By the way, podcasts are terrific for older people. We grew up pre-TV, with radio in our ears.

Transcript of What's a podcast?

Hey, I’m Rachel McAlpine and my podcast is Learning How To Be Old. Listen if you might be old one day.

I said listen, not watch. People ask me, what’s a podcast? What’s the point? There’s no video, nothing to see!

So. It’s like a radio programme on your phone. But you pick the programmes that you really like, and listen whenever you like. No screen involved. You can listen while you do the dishes, sit on the bus, go on the treadmill, drift off to sleep — whatever.

And it’s on your phone. Which is in your pocket. If you’re 50, 60, 70,  you’ve got a friend in your pocket. Just search for Rachel McAlpine podcast, or Learning How to be old. Or my website, WriteIntoLife.com/podcast. There's a pile of episodes there for your pleasure, and a new one every couple of weeks.

Today I’m learning how to be old from someone with a track record: the fabulous Rachelle Calkoen. She was born in 1923, in Holland.

I interviewed her four years ago, for my play, The Secret Lives of Extremely Old People, when she was only 98.  The other day I was having a cup of tea with her and she kindly gave me permission to use part of that conversation for this podcast. Coming up shortly.

She said very little had changed for her since then, and she certainly looks the same (wonderful) and her voice sounds the same (musical). She still has the same problems: words — she can FEEL them in her mouth, but they won’t come out; and the same pleasures: birds and people and books and clocks and life itself.

She’s 102, with a mind and heart wide open. She is curious! She’s up for new stuff! Some things annoy her but I don’t think anything bores her. Anyway we can never BE her but that’s what I’m learning from her: to crank up that curiosity engine.

An extremely long life is inevitably interesting. We learn something of her childhood in Holland followed by the horrors of the German occupation. Her university year in Geneva under Professor Jean Piaget and idealistic early career. Her marriage and emigration to New Zealand 75 years ago.

But I'm especially interested in her personal experience of life as an extremely old woman, because she is my curious centenarian role model.

• A centenarian's practical advice (A sturdy centenarian)
• ‘Keep your eyes open – and leap into the future’: 100 centenarians’ 100 tips for a life well lived (The Guardian)

• I've been driving safely for 50 years and never had a crash, so how dare you say I'm a danger to shipping?
• Why do I have to have a cognitive test? Animals beginning with A? Ridiculous.
• How am I going to get to choir if I can't drive?
• Why won’t my son let me drive my mokopuna to soccer?
• And, um, what are those things called buses?

These may sound familiar if you are starting to wonder whether you should be driving any more. Part of learning how to be old is learning to drive safely as long as possible, and how to recognise when you need advice or help. Fact is, everything changes over a lifetime of driving: roads, rules, cars, and our bodies, brains, needs and circumstances. Therefore we can't just carry on driving the same way forever without a review.

So I talked to Hariata Hema. Her role in Age Concern New Zealand is to run the Staying Safe Refresher Driving Course all around New Zealand, along with a small team. This is a one-day course to update your driving knowledge and also tackle those painful personal questions.

What has Hariata Hema taught me about driving safely even when you're old? Be honest with yourself, and think ahead, don’t wait for disaster to strike, be pro-active. And if you live in Aotearoa New Zealand, ask your local branch of Age Concern about their various courses, and especially the Staying Safe Refresher Driving Course. Short and oh so helpful and maybe necessary.

By the way, Hariata is 70, so she understands what is involved in driving safely into old age, not only professionally but also personally.

• Age Concern's Staying Safe Refresher Driving Course
• AA research on older drivers
• Starting and stopping—writing? driving? living?

That's one reason why Meena knows heaps about how to be old, and has no fear of old age. She’s learned from weaving and aquajogging with older women, and from hanging out with her 98-year-old uncle in Bombay.

In this episode she also talks about the feng shui of park benches, and a workshop run by an octogenarian that alerted young designers to the needs of older people.

I think you'll enjoy meeting Meena — and if so, do share her interview with a friend.

• Wellington City Council Hydrotherapy pool
• Park benches placed for conversation in Korea
• https://www.flickr.com/photos/meanestindian/ (Meena Kadri's amazing photostream on Flickr)

New Zealand's Accident Compensation Corporation (ACC) has this goal for New Zealand residents: Live stronger for longer — prevent falls and fractures. Look for the low cost community-run Steady As You Go classes. NYMBL, an ingenious app, is free for all New Zealand residents over 50.

Once last year I just fell over regardless, for no apparent reason, with no obvious cause. I didn't trip, slip, lose my balance, twist or stumble: I just felt as if someone popped the balloon of me and I collapsed. But thanks to one harmless and simple strategy, I fell softly and didn't hurt myself. So of course I asked Adrian to share this message: you can do this too. No guarantee! I'm well aware of that. But once learned, I've never forgotten it and I hope I never do. Fall softly! (After all, that's what children do.) So far, so good.

Listen carefully to Judith Fyfe, because she shares some fascinating insights, practical and profound. She has a strong sense of just how precious is the sound of very old people speaking — not just the stories they tell but their fascinating use of language and interesting voices. I hope you might be inspired to ask someone old to let you record their stories. It's a very significant work, usually bringing joy to both parties. Also it's so much easier now, starting with a cellphone and a microphone.

But first, listen to Judith's advice. She is terribly modest, but she is the real deal.

• Oral history and sound archive, New Zealand National Library
• The birth of talkback radio in New Zealand
• War Stories Our Mothers Never Told Us — NZ Film on demand

But I forgot to ask old people! If you're nearly 70s or older, have you noticed changes in your New Year resolutions as you age? Are your aims and values different? Please do tell!

The easiest places to comment on this podcast:

• on the YouTube video version
• on my website: writeintolife.com/podcast
• on Substack, where I HOPE to remember to post a link to the podcast ... soon!